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Tuesday, January 31, 2012

A Troll's Affected Ignorance

terryt continues its baseless argument, dancing around the main points:

"Definition of 'Species' from Saunders Veterinary Dictionary: 'A taxonomic category subordinate to a genus (or subgenus) and SUPERIOR to a subspecies or variety...'"

They mean 'superior' only in terms of nomenclature. Nothing to do with any genetic superiority. In othwer words nomenclature goes: genus, species, subspecies, with 'genus' being superior to 'species'. The idea certainly cannot be applied to the use of two species during the formation of a hybrid. Anyway, in agricutlural circles what on earth would be the reason for crossing any two species if one was genetically inferior?

"Humans already enjoy the longest lifespans of any mammal. How would inter-species crossing improve that?'

It's very doubtful that any humans could form hybrids with any living species. However it by no means follows that they were necessarily unable to form fertile hybrids with species now extinct. Hybrid vigour is not usually a product of between species hybrids. It occurrs within separate populations of the same species.

"And I certainly don't believe it's worth the trade-off in IQ points, just for a random chance of possible increased 'vigor'"

Exactly why farmers would not cross two species if both were not economically useful. It is the combination of useful characteristics they are after.

"In my OP, I was talking about ~inter-species hybridization with Humans (ie Human x Rhesus macaque or Human x Chimpanzee) not about simple outbreeding between different races of the same species".

Even chimpanzees are too remote from humans genetically to form hybrids. In general the time since separation for two species to be capable of forming hybrids is something in the order of a million years. Of course it's not specifically time dependent.

"Donkeys & horses aren't different races of the same species - they're distinctly different species, w/ different numbers of chromosomes)"

I keep trying to tell you that chromosome number is irrelevant. Obviously horses and donkeys have not been separated long enough to be unable to form hybrids.

"You breed Humans w/ lower apes, & you ~might get some 'hybrid vigor' out of it"

Extremely unlikely to be able to do it in the first place.

"Evidently, Neanderthals were the hybrid offspring of Humans x Rhesus monkeys; which then were subsequently ~backbred into the Human population"

Where on earth did you get that information from?

"Many gardeners prefer heirloom varieties of seeds over hybrids, for very good reasons (better flavor, better results from propagation of saved seeds"

Very true. But hybrids are used commercially because the production is greater with careful selection of the parent and grandparent species. For example hybrid hens lay far more eggs than do any 'heirloom varieties' of poultry.

"most people don't bother saving the seeds of hybrid crops, due to the unpredictable nature of their growth and development"

But that is the point of using hybrids. Their ancestry is selected to bring out the best points of each in the final cross. The F2 generation can throw up any combination of characteristics of the ancestral varieties.





Saturday, January 28, 2012

Greek Calculator Results

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/calc/grcf.php

According to Dienekes' anthropometric calculators, I'm 98% Caucasoid (on two of them); Alpinoid (on one); and I look like a Zulu (on one of them).  Here are the results from their "Greek Calculator":

Αποτελέσματα Φυλετικής Ανάλυσης - Results of Racial Analysis
Ομάδα (Group)Ευκλείδια Απόσταση (Euclidean Distance)Συνημιτονική Ομοιότητα (Cosine Similarity)
Αιγαίο (Aegean Islands)7.10.003
Κρήτη (Crete)7.6-0.157
Ιόνιο (Ionian Islands)7.82-0.256
Πελοπόννησος (Peloponnese)9.28-0.162
Στερεά Ελλάδα (Sterea Hellas)7.1-0.073
Θεσσαλία (Thessaly)7.43-0.169
Ήπειρος (Epirus)8.05-0.339
Μακεδονία (Macedonia)7.04-0.15
Θράκη (Thrace)6.460.244
Μετανάστες Ομογενείς (Greek Immigrants)8.68-0.737
Σαρακατσάνοι (Sarakatsans)5.650.662
Βλαχόφωνοι (Vlachophones)6.88-0.028
Σλαβόφωνοι (Slavophones)6.89-0.01
Σύνολο Ελλήνων (All Greeks)7.24-0.114
Σύνολο Βουλγάρων (All Bulgarians)6.140.413
Ρώσσοι Τασκένδης (Russians from Tashkent)4.420.747
Ουζμπέκοι Τασκένδης (Uzbeks from Tashkent)7.480.032

I seem to lean toward Russian from Tashkent / Sarakatsan / Bulgarian (in that order), assuming the proper method is to take the lowest Euclidean Distance as meaning the closest similarity.  That does seem to line up with the Cosine Similarity figures, so I'll accept that conclusion.
 
NOTE:  I originally goofed in my analysis, overlooking Sarakatsans and replacing that category with Thracians -- sorry.  But here and now, I correct my mistake (I'm a little surprised, no one brought that to my attention, lol):
 
Bulgarian women ca 1586, Ottoman Empire
 
 

Alina Kabaeva (I think she's probably more representative of "Russians" from Tashkent; the previous pix I posted were undoubtedly Uzbekis)

The thing about the so-called 'race' and 'ethnicity' calculators used by DNA companies, is that they are free to ignore any tribes they choose (as if we don't even exist) -- such as the Cherokee.


Keeping in mind, that my measurements may not be very accurate (however, there seems to be some sort of consistency -- even in the previous 'Zulu' result, lol).  I would rather see more scientifically based 'calculators'.  The ones that are available now, are quite streaked with bias, politics, ignorance, and discrimination (mainly due to omissions); they've limited usefulness.

A "Calculator" Made Me a Caucasoid Zulu...

http://dienekes.awardspace.com/calc/anthropometricf.php?trn=72&trgn=182&ngn=110&sngn=67&zyzy=135&gogo=110&enen=30&enex=30&exex=90&nsn=43&alal=33&noseinclin=45&chch=50&sasba=60

Results of Anthropometric analysis

Your best match is: Zulu (according to all 14 measurements) and Zulu (according to 11 independent measurements). See table All Populations below for other close matches.

Overall, you are 1.05 standard deviations from the average Zulu (according to all 14 measurements) and 1.12 standard deviations from the average Zulu (according to 11 independent measurements).

Pairwise Comparisons

The entry in row A column B is the probability that you belong in population A rather than B when only populations A and B are considered.
AZBUCZCRGEGRHUITPOLPORRUSLVKSLVNIRTUEGINSINGVITHJAANZUAFR-AMWHT-AM
AZ8961121002999801001001699451009410095100100100305824479
BU111621005943399100295910064100681001001005140930
CZ398481002199721001001199341009110092100100100214713370
CR8898921007510097100100591008510099100991001001007591108596
GE0000000010000080000192410000000
GR719579251001009110010032100661009710098100100100507746590
HU161010003901000561100111001310010010001013
IT206728310099710010059716100791008110010010092501647
POL010010001001000130100198210010010000000
POR000000000000000000000000
RU849889411006810095100100100801009910099100100100688878095
SLVK15101000443871000110091001010010010001002
SLVN5591661510034998410010020991009510096100100100346324982
IR00002000001000000006710000000
TU636911003892199100191510010054100100100380519
EG0000100000210000010000989910000000
IN532811002871998100190410046100100100100270417
SING0000810000100000940205610000000
VI0000760000100000930104410000000
TH00000000010000000000000000
JA709579251005010091100100321006610097100981001001007746590
AN428653910023997510010012993710092100931001001002313673
ZU981009990100961001001001009310098100100100100100100100969998100
AFR-AM56916715100359984100100201005110095100961001001003564282
WHT-AM21703041001097531001005981810081100831001001001027018


All Populations

These are your matches when all populations are considered.
PopulationAll-14Independent-11
Azerbaijan 11
Bulgarian 00
Czech 13
Croatian 86
German 00
Greek 33
Hungarian 00
Italian 00
Polish 00
Portuguese 00
Russian 67
Slovak 00
Slovenian 11
Iranian 00
Turkish 00
Egyptian 00
Indian 03
Singaporean-Chinese 00
Vietnamese 00
Thai 00
Japanese 31
Angolan 11
Zulu 7473
Afro-American 11
White-American 00

[NOTE:  This analyzer doesn't include "Native American" or "Cherokee" (the most populous tribe of Native American.  Neither have I seen a single DNA study ever done, on the 7 matrilineal clans of Cherokee.  I'm a Bird (Cely Bird, who married Steven/Stephen Hilburn).  Also, I don't want to read studies where they leave out the results (ie, fail to identify the haplogroups involved in their results and/or conclusions.  And I want to see an analyzer that will tell me my own specific mtDNA haplotype, automatically.]

UPDATE:  I have found a very good study done by Donald Panther-Yates, "Cherokee Clans, an Informal History", c2011... It's not a completely exhaustive study (there are very good reasons, for Native Americans being reticent about having our DNA tested / 'analyzed'; it's difficult to get many of them to participate; also cost may be an issue, many times), but I did learn a few things:

1- Just because your surname is "Bird" (like my gg-grandmother's) doesn't mean you are a member of that clan (it could be a paternal surname, while clans are strictly matrilineal)...
 
2- Based on my mtDNA, I'm definitely not either a Wolf or a Long Hair clan member...
 
3- It's very possible, even probable, that I'm a "Paint", because that clan is thought to have originated from ancient Phoenicians (with many of the associated mtDNA markers present there).

I recommend this paper (available in pdf online, for free) to anyone who is interested in the subject.  Mr. Panther-Yates is associated with DNA Consultants, a company which I have a great deal of confidence in, based on their sincere regard for Truth / Facts.  Some less honest DNA companies don't treat them with the respect they deserve (and I would question them myself, if they did so).
 
 
Are Zulus Caucasoids?  Because, I'm supposed to be 98% Caucasoid.  I've got Caucasoid mtDNA, too.  Dad's DNA is Western European, which inexplicably dates back to King Tut of Egypt.  And I honestly don't have Zulu facial features, imho.

The analyzer calculated me as being zero "White" American, and only 1/100 chance of being Afro-American, while having a whopping 74/100 chances of being Zulu, lol.

Must be joking, can't be right.

Deineke's anthropological features calculator says I probably look like this (but I don't get the connection, sorry).


Wow, they're polygamists with hang-ups about female virginity; how ironic:  a patriarchal society.  They trace their ancestry through their maternal lineage, however; so they're matrilineal.

Cherokee are (or were at some time in history) a matrilineal matriarchy.

CLANS:  Bird... Deer... Wild Potato... Wolf... Paint... Long Hair... Blue

Real Zulu women.

Do I look Zulu, in my early- to mid 30s?

My three children.

My maternal grandmother (Cherokee).



Grandpa, 75 yrs old

Zulu sisters.

Sisters.

Mother

Father



It Trolled Me

[I don't believe anyone is that stupid, so it must be a troll.  Completely anonymous, btw.]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
terryt said...

"The question was, which came first, hybrid mules or pure species horses?"

The answer is obvious. It is impossible to have a 'hybrid mule' until you have 'pure species horses'.

"It's a question of context: a practical matter, not one of aesthetics: ie mares & jacks are chosen for breeding mules, b/c otherwise (due to chromosomal differences between sp. E. asinus and sp. E. caballus) you'd have a hybrid hinny, instead of a hybrid mule"

The chromosome difference applies whichever direction the hybrid occurrs. The reason 'mares & jacks are chosen for breeding mules' is because mares produce larger offspring than do donkeys, and mules are used for work so size matters. That's why hinnys are so rare. They're useless for anything.

"--Horses and donkeys are different species, with different numbers of chromosomes".

Chromosome difference is not necessarily a probalem because Przewalski's horses and domestic horses have different chromosome numbers yet produce fertile offspring. In fact that has become a problem for maintaining the purity of Przewalski's horses.

"The colloquialism, 'superior', is commonly used by breeders or agriculturalists when comparing two species being considered for hybridization. It refers to the more biologically complex of the two compared"

I have had a great deal to do with agriculture and animal and plant hybridization, and I have never heard such a reference. Hybrids are utilized to obtain the most useful characteristics of each breed.

"All of my elaborate 'horse talk' is for the purpose of an easily understandable ~example. The same basic principles of hybrid theory apply to virtually any two mammalian species close enough taxonomically to breed".

What about hybrid vigour?






American Early Colonial Era Illustrations from "Journeys Through Bookland", c1922

Author,


Art Nouveau Storybook Illustrations, Camelot, 1922 Journeys Through Bookland



Art Nouveau Illustrations, "Gulliver's Travels", 1922 Journeys Through Bookland

Jonathan Swift