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Monday, February 25, 2013

Who Slew Goliath? Elhanan or David?

http://www.breslov.com/bible/
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/

According to Rabbi Chaim Potok, author of Wanderings...History of the Jews, it was Elhanan:  "[In fear of king Saul] David fled for his life when Saul sent his own agents to kill him, slipping out the window of his bedroom, aided by his wife, Michal daughter of Saul, and running off into the night, weaponless.  Then began the years of flight and wandering, from Gibeah to Ramah, where he met the aged Samuel in the company of ecstatics; from Ramah to the court sanctuary at Nob, where the priest Ahimelech, unaware that David was being hunted by the king, gave him food and the sword of Goliath, which had been placed behind the ephod -- some kind of oracular garment or image about whose nature scholars can make no clear determination.  David did not know that the sword of Goliath was in the sanctuary -- which is strange.  One imagines him wearing it all through the years of wandering and freebooting that follow; and one begins to understand how it was that the name of Goliath became associated with David and why in the end David was credited with slaying him when, according to II Samuel 21:19, it was actually an obscure soldier named Elhanan who engaged in that act of heroic single combat only to have his name eclipsed by a later accident of history." [page 143]

And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew [the brother of] Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.  II Samuel 21:19 ~ KJV

And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

Same scripture, II Samuel 21:19, but the Jewish version this time.

http://www.breslov.com/bible/2_Samuel21.htm#19


 
Ok, clearly there is a discrepancy, and although I love reading my King James Version of the Bible, and always will -- I am not opposed to correction of the text whenever needed.  In this case, it appears that David did not really kill the giant, Goliath the Gittite.  Evidently it was actually Elhanan who did.  It seems that the translators of the King James Version were in error on that point; and I doubt that it was intentional.  Just as Jewish scribes made a similar error when re-telling the history of the Jews' political relations with king Hiram of Tyre, they mis-translated the original text... To err is Human, after all.

Also notice that Goliath is called "the Gittite" in both scriptures -- not, the "giant".

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?cx=partner-pub-3004108712154911%3Ac4rrh3xku7n&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=on&q=giants&hs=1&sa=Search

(That also was accounted a land of giants:  giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims; [Deuteronomy 2:20, KJV]

Deuteronomy 2:18-23, in the Jewish Bible:
 
'Thou art this day to pass over the border of Moab, even Ar;
19
and when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon, harass them not, nor contend with them; for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon for a possession; because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession.--
20
That also is accounted a land of Rephaim:  Rephaim dwelt therein aforetime; but the Ammonites call them Zamzummim,
21
a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakim; but HaShem destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead;
22
as He did for the children of Esau, that dwell in Seir, when He destroyed the Horites from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day;
23
and the Avvim, that dwelt in villages as far as Gaza, the Caphtorim, that came forth out of Caphtor, destroyed them, and dwelt in their stead.--

The Jewish version calls the Zamzummin of Ammon "tall, as the Anakim", but the KJV calls them "giants".  The Jewish version doesn't use the term, "giants".
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And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.

But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.

And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature .

And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants : and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
 
Numbers 13:30-33 KJV
 
And Caleb stilled the people toward Moses, and said: 'We should go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.'
31
But the men that went up with him said: 'We are not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.'
32
And they spread an evil report of the land which they had spied out unto the children of Israel, saying: 'The land, through which we have passed to spy it out, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of great stature.
33
And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who come of the Nephilim; and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.'
 
Numbers 13:30-33 Jewish version
 
Again, the Jewish version speaks of the Anak from the Nephilim as having tall stature and being too fierce, too strong, to beat in combat -- but unlike the KJV, it doesn't refer to them as "giants".

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The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims;
 
Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
 
Deuteronomy 2:10-11 KJV
 
The Emim dwelt therein aforetime, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakim;
11
these also are accounted Rephaim, as the Anakim; but the Moabites call them Emim
 
Deuteronomy 2:10-11 Jewish Bible

Here, it becomes more apparent to me, that the word "Rephaim" in the Jewish text is used instead of the word "giants" in the King James Version.  Also, the Rephaim (called Emim by the Moabites) were like the Anakims (ie tall in stature).  The Ammonites called the Rephaim, "Zamzummim".
 
So the tall people, the Rephaim, were called Emim by the Moabites and Zamzummim by the Ammonites.  And, they (the Rephaim / Emim / Zamzummim) were like the Anakims.  If they were like the Anakims, then they were tall -- but they were not the Anakims.
 
So, in one region there were the Rephaim / Emim / Zamzummim; and in another region that the Israelites were considering for settlement, there were the Nephilim:  the sons of Anak.
 
All tall and mighty men, but not necessarily of the same tribe.  At least two different tribes of very tall people, here.
 
It is interesting to note, that Maximinus Thrax, considered one of the finest Caesars of Rome, was reputed to have been extremely tall (>8 feet).
 
 
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And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,
 
Joshua 12:4 KJV
 
and the border of Og king of Bashan, of the remnant of the Rephaim, who dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,

Joshua 12:4 Jewish Bible

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There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
 
Genesis 6:4 KJV
 
 
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2
that the sons of G-d saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose.
3
And HaShem said: 'My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.'
4
The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of G-d came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.
5
And HaShem saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6
And it repented HaShem that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.
7
And HaShem said: 'I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and fowl of the air; for it repenteth Me that I have made them.'
8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of HaShem.
Genesis 6:1-8 Jewish Bible
 
In the KJV, the Nephilim are referred to as "giants".
 
 
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All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out.

Joshua 13:12 KJV
 
all the kingdom of Og in Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei--the same was left of the remnant of the Rephaim-- for these did Moses smite, and drove them out
 
Joshua 13:12 Jewish Bible
 
Again, in KJV the "remnants of the Rephaim" are called "the giants".

And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:

Joshua 15:8 KJV
 
And the border went up by the Valley of the son of Hinnom unto the side of the Jebusite southward--the same is Jerusalem--and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the Valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the uttermost part of the vale of Rephaim northward.
Joshua 15:8 Jewish Bible
 
Here, the KJV calls "the vale [ie Valley] of Rephaim" "the valley of the giants".

And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.

Joshua 17:15 KJV
 
And Joshua said unto them: 'If thou be a great people, get thee up to the forest, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the Rephaim; since the hill-country of Ephraim is too narrow for thee.'
 
Joshua 17:15 Jewish Bible
 
The "Rephaim" are again called the "giants" in the KJV.
 
And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel,
 
Joshua 18:16 KJV
 
And the border went down to the uttermost part of the mountain that lieth before the Valley of the son of Hinnom, which is in the vale of Rephaim northward; and it went down to the Valley of Hinnom, to the side of the Jebusite southward, and went down to En-rogel.

Joshua 18:16 Jewish Bible

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For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.
 
And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.
 
Deuteronomy 3:11,13 KJV


For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the Rephaim; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbah of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.--

and the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half-tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob--all that Bashan is called the land of Rephaim.

Deuteronomy 3:11,13 Jewish Bible
 
So, I need to research Ammon, Bashan, Nephilim, Anak, Anakim, Rephaim, king Og, etc.
 
Also, a cubit is around 18-21 inches.  But, a king's bed is most like quite a bit larger than the man himself, lol.


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To continue, Goliath is mentioned six times in the KJV Bible:
 
And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. (1 Samuel 17:4)
 
 
And as he talked with them, behold, there came up the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, out of the armies of the Philistines, and spake according to the same words: and David heard them. (1 Samuel 17:23)
 
 
And the priest said, The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom thou slewest in the valley of Elah, behold, it is here wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod: if thou wilt take that, take it: for there is no other save that here. And David said, There is none like that; give it me. (1 Samuel 21:9)
 
 
And he enquired of the LORD for him, and gave him victuals, and gave him the sword of Goliath the Philistine. (1 Samuel 22:10)
 
 
And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam. (2 Samuel 21:19)
 
 
And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff was like a weaver's beam. (1 Chronicles 20:5)
 
 
Now, here are the same scriptures in the Jewish Bible:
 
And there went out a champion from the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. (1 Samuel 17:4)
 
And as he talked with them, behold, there came up the champion, the Philistine of Gath, Goliath by name, out of the ranks of the Philistines, and spoke according to the same words; and David heard them. (1 Samuel 17:23)
 
And David said unto Ahimelech: 'And is there peradventure here under thy hand spear or sword? for I have neither brought my sword nor my weapons with me, because the king's business required haste.'
 
And the priest said: 'The sword of Goliath the Philistine, whom thou slewest in the vale of Elah, behold, it is here wrapped in a cloth behind the ephod; if thou wilt take that, take it; for there is no other save that here.' And David said: 'There is none like that; give it me.'

(1 Samuel 21:9-10)
And he inquired of HaShem for him, and gave him victuals, and gave him the sword of Goliath the Philistine.' (1 Samuel 22:10)

And there was again war with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.
 
(1 Chronicles 20:5)

Ok, judging from what I've seen so far, I am going to need to do a lot more study and research on these scriptures, before I can conclusively determine whether or not it was David who actually killed Goliath.  According to Rabbi Chaim Potok, it was Elhanan -- but was Potok correct in that assessment?  I don't know yet, and I'm sure I won't have the answer yet, tonight.
 
http://www.ellopos.net/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N63lhtx2q8o&list=PLNkRf_OLBOiGGI9VoS78SSLcJHcx9hUPc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_FSmvBgHUc&list=PLNkRf_OLBOiGGI9VoS78SSLcJHcx9hUPc

Evidence of ancient American Giant Humans has been systematically covered up, for political reasons, and for reasons of theft, fraud, and genocide.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln/lincoln2/1:6?rgn=div1;view=fulltext
The eyes of that species of extinct giants, whose bones fill the mounds of America, have gazed on Niagara, as ours do now... Abraham Lincoln ("Honest Abe")

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