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Thursday, January 12, 2012

R1b1a2 -- My Father's yDNA

As luck would have it, I also got an email today from Liz Jones of the Denman yDNA Project on Family Tree DNA's website.  She seems quite certain, based on my Dad's pedigree chart, and compared to other family members of the Project, that his yDNA was most likely ~R1b1a2.  There was only one person she knew of, who was definitely a reasonable candidate for a match, so I'm very relieved and thankful to have gotten the information.

They've renamed the clades, so it's also known as "R-M269".
(This covers all of R1b, including R1b1a2).

Wikipedia states that R-M269 (R1b1a2) dominates Western Europe.  I see that it's presently quite heavily concentrated in the Basque region of France and Spain; also Ireland, Wales, and Scotland.

From Wikipedia:  "The frequency is about 71% in Scotland, 70% in Spain and 60% in France.  In south-eastern England the frequency of this clade is about 70%; in parts of the rest of north and western England, Spain, Portugal, Wales and Ireland, it is as high as 90%; and in parts of north-western Ireland it reaches 98%.  It is also found in North Africa, where its frequency surpasses 10% in some parts of Algeria."

Wow, My father was a good, lovable, kind, and worthy man; and I'm not really surprised to learn that he possibly was a Celtic, Aryan type (after all, his family is English with probable Danish ancestry too) -- but, I really was hoping he might have had one of the indigenous, Cro-Magnon classifications.  Who knows, maybe the conclusion given to me by the Denman Project administrator is mistaken?  Lol.  Maybe the "match" was really fathered by someone not a Denman?  Lmao.  Is it possible to have that clade, yet not be a Hybrid?  Please say "yes"!

Anyway, IF it's true:  that means he quite possibly was a carrier of the Rh- gene.  And since some Aryanism runs in Mother's family too:  she is also a possible 'carrier' of that particular recessive blood trait.  Meaning that I too, might be a carrier of it.  My children carriers, and so on.

It also means as I had suspected anyway, that we probably have more than a few Rh- members of the family.  However, I don't know of ANY cases of women in our family, who have had problems with bearing live infants to term, or of needing Rhogam shots -- so maybe we all lucked out, somehow?  On the other hand, if either our children OR their fathers were Rh- themselves, it wouldn't have made any difference whether or not the mothers were Rh-.  There would be no problematic pregnancies for that reason (ie caused by blood incompatibity between mother and fetus), in those cases.

And all of our men seem or seemed likely Hybrid or Aryan / Indo-European candidates, in my humble opinion.  I do know that I, my mother, allegedly my father, and my youngest daughter are Rh+, though we very well could be carriers anyway.  I might have sisters, children or grandchildren who are Rh-, and not even know it.  I really wish they would tell me, and not be so secretive about their bloodtypes, assuming that they know them.  It's not very difficult to guess, though, in many cases.

(Something puzzles me though.  My mother nearly died of "German measles", when just a child of five. And then when I had my second and third babies (not the first one), born six years apart, a nurse came into my room after each birth, with loaded hypodermic needle in hand.  I probably appeared alarmed to them (I swear it could have even been the same nurse both times), so each time the nurse offered the explanation: "Doctor says you don't have immunity to German measles..." But when I opened my mouth to protest, she injected me anyway, before I could say very much.

Needless to say, the second time that it happened, I quickly protested: "No, I had that vaccination the last time I gave birth here", but the nurse (without really looking me in the eye) insisted that the 'Doctor' prescribed the shot for me.  I don't think that really has anything to do with Rhogam shots, but it gives me a seriously bad case of the creeps, because I have a very difficult time trusting 'doctors'.  Maybe if I had been shown some sort of documentation, that the shot was really a vaccination against "German measles", I would feel better about it.  But all I saw was some unidentified hypodermic needle, and that angers me.  Medical staff demand and expect blind trust from patients, and that's just wrong.)

But back to the main subject of this blog:  Evidently, DNA scientists have found that King Tut is in the same subclade as my father seems to be, lol; Dad would have enjoyed all of these facts I've uncovered about the family.  And I wish that he was still with us, only partly so that he could do confirmative testing...

Maybe I'm over-reacting, anyway; I should check and see if Rh- is associated with that clade first, before I jump to conclusions.  However, the evidence does seem to point me in that direction.  Like I said, I'm not very surprised or shocked; it's just not really what I wanted to hear.

UPDATE: I've done a little more research, and learned that yDNA haplogroup "I" is almost all Indo-European tribes, whereas R1b1a2 is associated with Cro-Magnons.  I'm happy to hear that my father was more Cro-Magnon than Neanderthal.  That's as I would have guessed, anyway, so this bears out my gut instinct about it.

I still havent figured out the connection between King Tut and R1b1a2, though.  But Dad's clade originated in Northeastern or Central Europe, according to this source:
(I don't believe we're related to the Tierneys, but they have lots of info about it on their yDNA project website, above.)

Seems R1b1a2 (and the Basques) were descendants of the lineage of Human beings who in ancient times crossed the Red Sea from around the headwaters of the Nile region, and got the heck out of the Levant region fairly early on.  It appears that the R2 branch of R later made an abrupt separation from the R1bs, who chose to continue on, westward to the Atlantic ocean near Navarre.

The R2's might have been captured and taken back to Northern India, where the Harras culture probably made slaves of them.  I would assume that their Cro-Magnon wives were women of the N, X, W, and possibly H1 clades (ie, all the known Caucasoid clades still found in low concentrations in that region today).  I believe many of those female Cro-Magnons who were captured and enslaved by the Harras, the Babylonians, Egyptians, and Assyrians, were forced to breed with Rhesus macaque monkeys, in order to produce for their captors a slave race, or "monkey army".

Another branch, the R1a's, seem to have decided to settle in Eastern Europe, rather than continue on to the Coast.  And yet another branch, around the same time apparently, decided to go off into the exact opposite direction from my father's tribes:  they headed across the full length of central Asia, then crossed the Bering Straits into North America -- morphing into the "Q" clades as they went.  Maybe they encountered the Denisovans along the way, in Asia.

I think a lot of the problems with DNA analysis, is that we tend to lump everyone of the same haplotypes together, as if they had stayed huddled closely with one another throughout history... But it's more likely that tribes and family groups were frequently divided up, due to wars, raids, captivity, etc.

Also, I notice how people often stereotype the Indo-Europeans' behaviors (warring, thieving, plundering, raping, etc.) -- as if they were the "norm": they ~weren't normal to us indigenous tribes, and our (more peaceful, less acquisitive) behaviors are and were just as valid.

(If you can sort out all of the speculative conjecture, this is a pretty interesting article).
(More info...)

(Interesting discussion; very informative.)
According to Bryan Sykes, "Oisin" (Irish, pronounced O-Sheen) his name for yDNA R1b, came to Britain from Iberian (Spanish) fishermen, about 6000 years ago.
(Interesting article on the subject of M269.)
"And what of the Celts we know – the Irish, Scots and Welsh? Scholars have traditionally placed their origins in Iron Age Central Europe, but Oppenheimer’s new data clearly show that the Welsh, Irish and other Atlanticfringe peoples derive from Ice Age refuges in the Basque country and Spain. They came by an Atlantic coastal route many thousands of years ago, though the Celtic languages we know of today were brought in by later migrations, following the same route, during Neolithic times.

"Stephen Oppenheimer shows us, in his meticulous analysis, that there is in truth a deep genetic line dividing the English from the rest of the British people but that, fascinatingly, the roots of that separate identity go back not 1500 years but 6,000. The real story of the British peoples is one of extraordinary continuity and enduring lineage that has survived all onslaughts."
... Not bragging at all, but I must say that our people have a fascinating history, in my humble opinion.  There are many very ironic parallels between my paternal and maternal lineages, despite the fact that the maternal one is New World (Cherokee) and the paternal one is Old World.
"The Iberian Peninsula, which consists of modern day Spain and Portugal, has been colonized and ruled by several tribal powers throughout history. The identity of the ancient Iberians is unknown; however it is known that the Celts who came later merged with them, to form the Celtiberians. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, the most common haplotype in Western Europe is a part of R1B1A2 and it has Celtic and Germanic variations. A Celtic origin is most likely for individuals of Spanish lineage who are members of Haplogroup R1B1A2. In the year 409, the weakening of the Roman Empire's power in Iberia resulted in a power vacuum throughout the peninsula. That same year, Germanic Suevi,Vandals, and Sarmatian Alans followed shortly after by the Visigoths established kingdoms throughout Iberia. These Germanic tribes brought with them Haplogroup I as well as Germanic variants of haplogroup R1B1A2. These Germanic Kingdoms were taken over by the Moors in the 8th century, but were reestablished in the 13th century during the Reconquista, setting the stage for the Spanish speaking, Christian Spain we know today.
"In the early 11th century the establishment of the very prominent Narbonne Talmudic Academy in France resulted in increased Jewish educational opportunities for the Jews of France and Spain. Some researchers propose that during the height of the academy’s prominence, many non-Jews from France and Spain were attracted to the famous school and underwent conversions to Judaism, thus introducing haplogroups R1B1A2 and I into the Jewish gene pool. Even non-Jews who had not attended the academy may have been enticed to convert. In Spain, some estimates hold that Jews comprised 10-20 percent of the total population. This is a very high percentage considering that historically Jews have been known to make up about 1% of the world's population. Jews were very successful in business and reached very high positions in Spanish society, to the point that many not only held titles of nobility and were employed frequently by the crown, but some researchers believe some Jews even married into the royal family.
"The Jews' prominence in Spain prior to the Inquisition may have made conversion to Judaism more attractive and accessible, thus creating yet another opportunity for haplogroup R1B1A2 and haplogroup I to be introduced into the Jewish gene pool. Pogroms in Spain, may also account for the introduction of some Western European DNA among Sephardic Jews, although pogroms were not so common in Spain, nor as severe as they were in Eastern Europe. These origins are highly speculative and research is currently underway to confirm these theories, however these haplogroups are present in most Sephardic and Ashkenazic communities in small percentages. These haplogroups have even been found among Sephardic Jews whose ancestors migrated to the Ottoman Empire in the fifteenth century and have not been to Europe since. Therefore Jewish ancestry cannot be discounted because of a match with a Western European haplogroup. A member of this project with tradition of Jewish ancestry on his paternal line and is a member of these haplogroups may have direct descent from a convert to Judaism. Since converts may marry born Jews, indirect Jewish ancestry on other lines is possible and testing of other family members may be necessary. Sephardic Jews, but more often Spaniards and other Europeans brought these lineages with them to the Dominican Republic from Europe."
The above three charts are all from the relevant Wikipedia articles.

"Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster."  -- Self-description by an R1b1a2 (M269) man.
They're very tightfisted with the results, but I've seen, somewhere in all that gobbledygoop, where they acknowledge the Denman surname to be conclusively associated with M-269, or R1b1a2.
Unrelated to us, perhaps; but here's another old American family with lots of R1b1a2 yDNA.  This family surname was originally spelled, "Coen".
Irish yDNA carries a lot of R1b1a2.


  1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  2. Very interesting. I also belong to the R1b1a2 haplogroupe, but my ancestors are a famous Turkic tribe called Kipchak (or Cumans in Europe). Are they moved from the West? Hmm.

    1. Thank you very kindly for the feedback, Mr. Eleusin. While not at all surprised to learn that this group is found in your tribe, I doubt that R1b1a2 actually originated in Europe, moving Eastward... Instead, it is believed by many researchers to have originated in the Levant region, migrating Northward and then West into Europe and parts of West Asia -- some of it even started toward the Americas via mainland China.

      Some of those original R1b1a2 lineages managed to retain their original DNA code along the way, continuing to express it even now (like you and my father). However, the branch that set out across China for the Americas eventually mutated into "Q" (found in many modern Native American males; and I would suggest that the mutation occurred within America following the mass intercontinental migration), while some of the other branches mutated into other, different, more chronologically recent classifications found in Europe and also in the Middle- and Near- East regions of the world.

      Adding to their mystique, is the fact that the controversial results of Egyptian Pharaoh, King Tut's yDNA is believed by many to be the same: R1b1a2. However, since he had no surviving children, it is quite clear that even if that is truly the case he nevertheless cannot be a ~direct paternal ancestor anyway.

      I appreciate your comment sir; you've motivated my curiosity to study the Kipchak / Cumans tribe now. Doubtless, I shall find it a very fun and interesting topic of research. Thank you.

    2. توت عنخ أتون بالفعل خرجت عينتة على السلالة الكريمة
      وهو من احفاد العماليق ابناء لاوذ بن سام
      وحكم مصر كآخر حكام العائلة الثامنة عشر
      ابان النفوذ الهكسوس عليها
      والله اعلم

    3. "Tutankhaten already exited appointed strain on precious
      It is a descendant of the sons of the Giants Aoz bin Sam
      And the rule of Egypt as the last eighteen family rulers
      Influence them during the Hyksos
      God knows"

      Thanks for your comment, very interesting.

  3. When looking at this in the context of history another possibility arises. R1b Y-DNA may have also been the predominant group of the original Jews, and North Africans, (Egyptians included, which would explain why King Tut was R1b).
    But after the muslim invasions out of Saudi Arabia, and through the Middle East, and on to North African, most of the R1b males would have been killed, and the women raped by the conquerors, thus replacing the old R1b lineages with the Arabic/Middle Easterner DNA lineages we see today... rape and pillage ladies and gentlemen, rape and pillage.

    1. Interesting and plausible hypothesis, Mr. Puig. I hope we all learn the whole truth someday soon.

  4. I wrote a long comment giving a full explanation of what really happened, then when trying to post it via the Google box, it wiped it all. If anyone wants to know what the legends tell us or who King Twt - David, eldest son of Solomon, really was then email me calum33 at bigpond dot com. The facts are absolutely bizarre for the King was Dead before they resurrected him - only logical explanation for what has been found.

    1. Your contribution to the discussion is much appreciated. I'm interested in hearing your theory. You might try posting again, but with a few shorter comments instead of one long one. Also before posting, to save time and avoid inconvenience, you might like to copy your comments just in case there are any more glitches. Or, you could post your theory on your own blog and just let me know when you're done. I promise I'll read it. Unfortunately, I have a policy against engaging in emails with people I don't know personally.