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Tuesday, December 20, 2011

Reply to Yorkie on the thread, "Different kinds of Vikings?"

[quote Yorkie']

"Thanks for that informative posting. The add-on bit about the presence of red and blond hair, blue and green eyes in your family and the possibility that these might be genetic echoes of Norse attempts to settle in 'Vinland' intrigues me. With respect, the immediate scenario that springs to mind is obviously that of much later interaction with white european settlers. However if these traits have been documented in your family to hail from further back in time, who knows?  It would be wonderful if we could prove the connection!
                                            Regards,
                                                                 Yorkie   :)"

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[quote Yorkie']

"Thanks for that informative posting. The add-on bit about the presence of red and blond hair, blue and green eyes in your family and the possibility that these might be genetic echoes of Norse attempts to settle in 'Vinland' intrigues me. With respect, the immediate scenario that springs to mind is obviously that of much later interaction with white european settlers. However if these traits have been documented in your family to hail from further back in time, who knows? It would be wonderful if we could prove the connection!
Regards,
Yorkie :)"

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I didn't mean to suggest (nor did I) that the 'Aryan' type traits found in some of my family members were all solely due to my gg-grandmother's inheritance (she 'looked' Cherokee, only more so, except that her hair was 'European' thick & wavy brown instead of 'Asian' straight & black).

I'm perfectly aware that the genes possibly came from some of my more recent ancestors (grandparents; other gg-grandparents; even further back on Dad's, & mother's ~father's~, sides of the family). After all, Cely's own daughter (my ancestor) married a blue-eyed, blond man (although every one of their 10 children 'looked' Indian nevertheless -- all quite swarthy & tall, some with straighter, more 'Asian'-looking dark hair).

I also have 2 children with distinctively different types of hazel colored eyes (& one who inherited my brown eyes & wavy hair). My parents & 1 sister are brown-eyed; the other is green/hazel eyed, w/ gingery red-straight, lt. brown hair.

My paternal aunt & her family are all dark-brown eyed & light-olive skinned, with what I call 'black Irish' looking hair (very thick & curly, dark brown to black in color). Two of my mother's childless (although married) full brothers (one red-head & one with straight black hair who looks very Cherokee) both have bright blue eyes. IOW, it's just a mixed bag of physical features here.

I only mentioned the traits because that is what you all were talking about at the time. My response was regarding the blue-eye mutation, remember?

But this thread is about Vikings (different KINDS of them, in fact), so I also pointed out that I might possibly have ancient Viking DNA, since they (& probably also the Phoenicians, both cultures being sea-faring sailors & trader/merchants/explorers) did enter North America (the Vikings around 1000 AD, which is more than 500 yrs prior to Columbus' voyage; & whenever the Phoenicians sailed across to our land).

The evidence is: they were here. And they didn't ~all~ just later 'disappear'. A few of them survived through their DNA, like my gg-grandmother Cely (& all of her offspring). She was Cherokee & haplogroup "W". I'm not lying & my family isn't stupid, we know who & what she was.

"If A,B,C,D & X are all Native American; then all Native Americans must be A,B,C,D & X" --- is poor, irrational logic. That is NOT science, people.

There are other documented cases of Cherokee & also Micmac Indians w/ rare & unusual "European" mitochondrial haplotypes. NONE of those documented cases who claim to be Cherokee with Caucasian (or 'European') mtDNA, are type "H" or any other of the more ~modern~ groups. All of them possess more ancient clades. So they probably aren't the result of ~modern~ European invasions.

My specific "W" subclade isn't 'modern' either, isn't yet found anywhere in the Old World, & contains the 16189C mutation found in most individuals descended from ancient indigenous populations worldwide. It is the same mtDNA mutation responsible for the onset of type II diabetes in many indigenous people (including many Native Americans).

Why is it so important to you & others here, to deny my heritage? What difference does it make, to you?

I have a few theories about how my Cherokee gg-grandmother got her unique "W" mtDNA; but none of them fit the wild, careless assertions that I've heard from certain posters on this forum, who don't even know me or my family. So you have a hard time believing me? Oh, well.

(I'd like to see you mock or disparage my uncles or male cousins on Mother's side of the family, to their faces. I'd love to hear those gentlemen's reactions, were you to question their maternal heritage. They wouldn't stand for it, because they had nothing but respect for my grandmother & her family.)

Our mtDNA didn't come to us from recent European invasions; it could have come from invading Vikings or Phoenicians; it might have come over across the South Pacific in ancient times; or maybe our "W" was simply a remnant of the original paleolithic indigenous people who inhabited the Western Hemisphere in isolation. Plenty of evidence suggests that possibility, too: "W" predates "B" & "C"; & is relatively concurrent with "A" & "X" clades.

The ancient Vikings (& Phoenicians) have been scientifically linked with the W-I-X set. So what is so difficult about the idea, for you to understand it?

And (although I appreciate any opportunity to talk about it, lol), how did you infer from my comments about the blue eye mutation(s), that I somehow believe we definitely got them through my Cherokee gg-grandmother? Because although she had "W" mitochondria, she obviously had to be a rarity even among Native Americans. So, it stands to reason that her lineage didn't have very many of her type, to mate with. Thus she herself probably possessed a lot of brown-eyed, Asian-type genes.

(Don't treat people of whom you barely know anything, as simpletons: unless you're incapable of better manners. It reflects badly on you. When I say that my gg-grandmother was fullblooded Cherokee, & that she possessed mtDNA haplogroup "W" -- you can take it to the bank.)

If I could show you the photo of her, which I saw myself, you all would stop & THINK first, before questioning my story & making yourselves look foolish. But if you prefer to believe whatever you LIKE to believe, be my guest.

(I'd probably be quite disappointed to know what you do for a living, & your educational credentials; and please don't dare brag about yourselves to me. The readers will know to whom I refer: the mindlessly barking, noisy skeptics, that's who.)

Oh & I was more than happy to elucidate what little I know about the science of mutations for anyone who cares to listen; my pleasure.

PS: Yorkie, one major cultural characteristic of Native Americans is that prior to Columbus they had no ~formal~ written language; no alphabets decipherable to European invaders. They didn't keep written records in the manner that you suggest. We respectfully & honestly ~spoke~ to one other, instead; relying on our often photographic ~memories~.

The PC computor had not yet been invented, Yorkie. Our American courthouses full of file cabinets & pieces of paper covered with much gibberish, had not yet even been built -- much less, later torched by arsonists tampering with the evidence.

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